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Interviewed September 1, 2017 for Catalunya Barcelona docuseries.

Flamenco has always been controversial in Spain, and in Catalunya. Specially in Catalunya.

For me, Flamenco is song, music and dance. That is, a compendium of three arts that bounded [not sure because he uses a word that doesn’t exist] and created a music, a singing, and dance. They are ones of the most exciting in the world.

Therefore, there are some codes, some ways, entries, and improvisations that are not that improvised. But the most important thing is, that it is very exciting and thrilling, and very difficult,

and very hard. It is as complex as classical music or classical dance or as lyrical song. It deserves respect. A lot of people talk about it without having a clue. And they don’t know anything about it because they haven’t bothered to study it.

To study it as a signing, as a dance, as a music. They only pay attention to the feeling it shows. It has to be analyzed from a musical and composer point of view. It’s very rich.

Yes. The question of the independence movement here in Catalunya. I come from the anti-Franco fight, and I served some time in 1972. I was in the center of the social fight in what today is known as Nou Barris.

The neighborhood of Verdum, Roquetes, Trinitat Vella, Trinitat Nova, Prosperitat, Guineueta etc.

Of course, in the days of the dictator Franco, and when I say dictator, I also want tomention the whole network of people of economic and ecclesiastical powers, and people who supported him. Well, he persecuted reds and separatists, especially.

For him, the communists were the red ones. Since I came from the libertarian camp, the anarchist one, they branded me as separatist. Separatist, not red.

I was also persecuted for going against the tide. People who come from libertarian camps don’t believe in hierarchies, we are not authoritarian. We are pro-freedom of thinking, individual freedom.

That this abstract collective freedom does not contaminate or impose on the individual who wants to follow one side or another, etc. Freedom without adjectives, am I right? Freedom has no adjectives. There’s either freedom or not.

So separatist in this sense, let’s say. To consider that nowadays there are Francoist remains, and, possibly, with this process taking place in Catalunya, I’m not sure but possibly,

we can leave behind this Francoist or Neofrancoist past that has existed during this last 40 years of seized democracy.

Seized in some aspects. It is a formal democracy but not at the European level. The Social-democracy here in Spain has never been a democracy, a social democracy that takes into account the interests of the popular classes.

It has been a mix of centralism and liberalism.

Yes. From the outcome of what has been called “Civil war” or the so-called Spanish Revolution. Well, the coup d’etat prevails and a fascist dictatorship is established. Life in Catalunya under Franco’s dictatorship is gray. It’s a life of cholera, dull, as I say.

But it’s the same in the rest of Spain. That is to say, in Spain, you could live peacfully if you didn’t say a word nor confront the government through movements and clandestine parties. Both in Spain and in Catalunya.

We need to make something clear, and I have to qualify it, but we need to make it clear that the outcome of the Civil War… The Civil war is, summarizing it, the winners were the owners of the land, and the owners of factories in industrial areas.

This is very clear. The middle classes are destroyed and the working class, shattered. But everywhere. What happens in Catalunya? That in addition, the Dictator and his accomplices both in Spain and Catalunya, persecute Catalan language.

There’s an added value of persecution, since they hunt down Catalan in Catalunya.

But if you were anti-Franco, and went to a demonstration that was obviously illegal then, you were caught by the police in Segovia. You probably went to the police station, well, you did go, and three days. And then judged and jailed.

This happened in Barcelona, in Segovia, in Jaén, and let’s not talk about the Basque Country. The Basque Country was a more complex and complicate issue, the Basque Country, Euskadi and Navarra.

In Catalunya, the distinguishing fact is in this persecution. The dictatorship got in it for the Catalan language. This created a transversal movement in Catalunya, that set up Catalanism, political Catalanism.

Catalan language was the main defense mainstay against the dictatorship. A lot of people adhered to it because language is the maxim expression of what you are, of your identity.

The persecution of Catalan created in all kinds of people whose mother tongue was Catalan, a rejection against Franco.

This is the nuance, and it’s what has to be proved about the difference in Catalunya. However it also happened in the Basque Country with Euskera, and in Galicia with Galician.

Spain has never been just one because there are at least 4 different nations within it: Galicia, Euskadi, Navarra, Catalunya and the rest of it. It has never been just one.

Big? Well, we haven’t been big either. Maybe when we had the colonies in Cuba, Philippines, the north of Africa etc. But in 1898 all of this is left [unfinished]. Both Philippines and Cuba become independent, and so we are not that big.

And free. One, big, and free. Free under a dictatorship that jails, mistreats, and kills people for 40 years? Well, it wasn’t that free. We all endured this, all that is known as the Spanish State.

Catalunya, moreover, was persecuted. Well, Catalunya, Euskadi, Navarra and Galicia were persecuted for having a different language than Spanish. Spain, by being just one, could only have one language.

It was a huge mistake of the dictatorship. Because it could happen, to be Francoist and speak Catalan. And for a pragmatic person, you could be Francoist and speak Catalan. I don’t know why.

In fact, a lot of people that spoke Catalan were in the national war front when Franco was in power. But for me, this is the differential issue.

The régime was pro-Franco. It was a non-democratic régime. Authoritarian, who persecuted, mistreated, jailed, assassinated, etc. Even after the outcome of the Civil War. But we can not say that everyone in the country was pro-Franco.

No. Because there were anti-Franco people who took a risk. There had been a million of people exiled that had gone away, and also all the deaths of the civil war on one side and another. A three-year civil war is a defeat. A chaos It’s a great mess.

Therefore, what happened was that the industrial developed areas like Madrid, the Basque Country and Catalunya, and many cities in Europe; the people of the south, the Andalusian people, the people of Extremadura, Murcia, also people from Aragon, from Castile, the workers, the people of the land.

In these undeveloped areas the feudal relations of production still existed. That is, you worked one day cutting wheat and they paid you a duro [Spanish coin], and so you worked 15 hours. I’m from Andalucia and I know all this perfectly.

There were people forced to emigrate. Most people who arrived in Catalunya in the ‘50s, ’60s and ’70s, were people from families who had lost the Civil War.

What did we become, or what did they become? I was a kid, but for instance, my dad, who worked in the field, ended up working as an unqualified worker in a metallurgy factory. This happened to almost everyone.

However, there’s a part that moves to Catalunya, the Basque Country and to Madrid, in order to rule and help to set up the Spanish Trade Union Organization. They were policemen, civil guards, members of the Falange or teachers that had been purged.

There was also a very small part of immigration, of this sort. But the vast majority were losers of the Civil War. The civil war or the so-called Spanish revolution was not a Spanish war against Catalunya, no.

It was a very powerful class clash until the armed confrontation. Some of them defended an authoritarian coup because they thought the Front Popular had brought chaos to Spain,

and to the elections of February 1936. And they leave them from February 1936, March, April, May, June and July. Five months of life to a totally legitimate and democratic government. They were left-winged, nothing more than that. So clear we lost the weakest ones, we lost the humble ones, Catalan and Andalusian people,

From Extremadura and from Catalunya, from Madrid and from Catalunya. Of course some people were winners, too. People from the Catalan upper-class, the wealthy ones. They spoke Catalan, and because of this they thought: “Oh, maybe we have supported a coup”.

“And now this man that holds the powers is forbidding us to speak our language, even though we supported him”. This couldn’t happen in Andalusia, Extremadura, Murcia and Castella. This happened here.

For me, the definition of who is Catalan or what is Catalan is very easy. I don’t know, maybe someone finds it funny, but [Catalan] is everyone registered in Catalunya. If you arrive to Catalunya as a traveler, and you come and go, or maybe you stay some time.

But if you come here to work like most of us. We are now in the 21st century and things are faster and there is more mobility. But back when I was a child, in 1964 when I arrived in Barcelona,

Therefore, I have always had it clear that if I was registered here, that if I was registered here, I was Catalan. Why? Because, during the dictatorship, I could not demand my freedoms, I could not demand them, but since the agreed transition/transaction was made…

You could talk and not go to jail, you could protest, and not go to jail, you could hold meetings, and not go to jail. You could then demand your political, social, thinking etc rights.

You are here and therefore you vote here. You vote from Catalunya and for Catalunya. So this person is already Catalan for me. Another thing is nostalgia, feeling, speaking other languages, that you may like soccer or not, that bullfighting is Catalan or not.

All of this already goes into a question called language, identity and culture. What are the three mottos that have been critical in political cataclysm? We can’t discuss these concepts later if you wish.

Culture, identity and language. For me, Catalunya must be a free and politically democratic country. And the other three exceptions for me are not as important, even if some people in Catalunya give them this relevance.

Housing, education and work. Clearly this is Catalan. If you do not have a job, you do not have a home, and you don’t get a good education, what are you supposed to do with your life? What are you as a human being? Therefore the base is this one.

They are valued here, and to be able to be in a country where education is important, where everybody is able to develop its talent, and where people can live well and work.

At the moment, these three mainstay fail. They fall, for me, according to my point of view, they fail. And all this is now mixed with the independence movement, with the Catalanist movement,

with the part of Spain that, since some time ago, has showed these Francoist traits. Because they are the grandchildren, the children and the great-grandchildren of the people that made and won the war.

This is the reality. For that reason in Spain there has not been an right-wing extreme emerge like in other European countries. Because it is inside the PP itself. But it will pop up when the contradictions are tenser, it will emerge because it exists. As in the rest of Europe. And this is a big debate

The Communists had a lot to do here. There’s no way to understand that Marie Le Pen, his dad, they used to vote the French Communist party. Here, the official left-wing should be more critical with its past, doesn’t matter if they are communists or socialists.

Very big. And I do not think they are willing to do it. Because a worker is not a revolutionary just for being a worker. This is what libertarians or anarchists said. This is why the libertarian Atheneums existed.

They were authentic schools workers, of the culture that the workers had to be interested in. The anarchists said: they must be interested in theater, in music, they should be interested in literature, they should know about history.

And that that is not taught in schools, will be taught here, in the Atheneum. All of this was obviously destroyed during and after the war.

And the upper-class known that people with culture, education, people who read, are critical. And if you are critical, you don’t buy what people say. You don’t buy what the newspapers nor the tv, nor the social media say. This is the authentic mainstay of humanity.

Free individual beings that come together with also free individual beings, not a herd of sheep that need a dog to take them somewhere concrete, and a pastor to tell them what they have to do.

That’s the political parties. In which there can’t be nothing more but a leader who imposes his ideas. If you disagree, you either leave or get kicked out. The rest adapt to make a living out of politics. I find it respectful, they are doing a public service. I totally respect that. But they are not free.

The same political parties that want to save the weak classes, the humbles ones, are organized in this way. How will they save them? This pyramidal model is present in all right-wing and center-wing parties, and it has been adapted by this party. It’s a creation of Lenin and Stalin.

This is how it goes. It’s brutal but it’s the reality. This is the reality.

Yes. From the beginning of the sixties. Of course the regime, despite all the obstacles and all the problems of lack of freedoms, when the dictatorship signs the Marshall plan with the United States, there is a certain development.

There is an injection of money to Spain in exchange for a base for United States, we are now entering the Cold War. Sorry, in Catalan.

From the beginning of the sixties, once the agreement has been signed between Spain and US, the so-called plan Marshall.

There’s a huge injection of money from the US to Spain in order to develop industry and consumerism.

Here is when consumerism starts. It’s the big event of capitalism. Because we almost ceased to be workers or to be entrepreneurs or to have a liberal professions, or public workers,

in order to become consumerists. In exchange for this money from the US to Spain so the country is developed, consumerism created,

and people start living happily and better… This is the time of the great Spanish migration. They come here from the South.

To Madrid, to the Basque Country, to Europe. A lot of people from the South of Spain went to Europe to work as seasonal workers.

They saved some money, and then returned. Some of them stayed there, too. The thing is that in Barcelona [unfinished].

In exchange of this, the US establishes military bases in strategical places of Spain. Morón de la Frontera, Sevilla, Saragossa, a series of [unfinished].

And this is the Cold war. The distribution of the world between the Allies, the democratic ones. Russia was an Ally, too.

But it was not one in the outcome of the 2nd World War. My theory is that the Civil War of Spain was an experimentation laboratory for the 2nd World War.

People hope that, once the 2nd Wold War is over, the dictatorship ends, so they could be free.

But the pact between the States, England, France and the URSS, Russia on another side, was the division of European blocks.

And that’s why in the South of Europe they leave three enormous dictatorships: in Greece, in Spain and in Portugal.

Even though the US was, and is, a country that supports freedom. It allows an agreement to inject money in Spain in exchange of a series of military bases in order to control de Mediterranean.

So they could be in defense mode towards the other block, the Soviet one. Russia later on starts to invade a huge amount of countries, that’s why it created the URSS.

After the downfall of the wall in 1989, it disappears. Because it was a superficial URSS.

It wasn’t natural, and since it wasn’t natural, it disappeared.

And here begins a certain consumerism. By having some consumption we begin to open ourselves to music. To American, Anglo-Saxon, Rock and Roll music, jazz.

The fact that Barcelona had a seaport facilitates the arrival of American soldiers here in Barcelona, some of which were musicians who start playing in Jamboree.

There is a certain revival of music, theater. In the theaters actors also begin to play, and so actresses. They begin to organize themselves wanting to build a theater,

and the musicians wanting to make music. The most advanced composers who are not so [he makes this word up]. They didn’t want to pass the censorship etc. etc.

The movement of the “Nova Cançó” begins. In fact, the Nova Cançó is the continuation of the so-called Spanish song.

The Andalusian song. It already existed in Spain, as well as Flamenco. They are no more than traditional texts sang.

But you had an anonymous author. The singer-songwriter of the Catalan song writes his songs and music in Catalan.

In the rest of Spain, they do it in Spanish. The movement of the singer-songwriters is not exclusive from Catalunya.

But here, there’s the addition of the language as well. It’s always the same issue. And it is clear that there is a certain openness and people feel that the regime may open itself up, despite the fact that from 1960 until Franco’s death, there are a lot of deaths.

Death sentences are signed. There’re assassinations, the 1977 Massacre of Atocha, the Massacre of 3 March in Vitoria, the Montejurra massacre, the Case Almería in Andalusia etc.

But it is true that people start having televisions and buying them. There is a certain purchasing power. People buy the 600, the famous Seat car, which we call 600.

And what I said before, begins. People are freer when it comes to things related to their personal lives.

However, you could be beat up if you held a demonstration with 50, 60 or a hundred people in order to have the streets asphalted, a better health system or a school because the old one was insufficient.

It was this double dichotomy. Economically things were better, but on the other hand the dictatorship made what it had to do to confront those who rebelled themselves, which weren’t a lot. Some of us did, though.

And now everybody is anti-Franco. Come on, if everybody had been anti-Franco back then, he wouldn’t have died in bed. He wouldn’t have died in bed. People were neutral.

It’s not the same being anti-Franco than being neutral. Being anti-Franco means to get involved in clandestine movements, it means to fight, etc.

[I arrived here]

The Taller de Músics was born in 1979, it was the result of a group of people who met at the Enrique Morente Flemish group, which I, among other people, founded in 1970. It’s also a result of

what is known today as Popular Atheneum Nou Barris. It used to be a blacktop plant, and many people from the area fought against the smoke that came out of that plant, which served to asphalt the beltway now called

Ronda de Dalt or Ronda Litoral. That factory was there and it was an ecological fight. Moreover, it was the first ecological fight that took place in Catalunya and in the entry country, I guess. We, a squadron, shot down the asphaltic plant directly.

A Sunday of January 1977, and we vindicated culture, and overall, we vindicated the Atheneum. And there, people from the Peña Enrique Morente and other neighborhood associations of the area etc [unfinished]. They [the pro-Atheneum assembly] commissioned me to plan 30 hours of popular music.

and I got in touch with many musicians, and those musicians were the first teachers of what is today, or what has been, the Taller de Músics of the Raval, We are also in Sant Andreu. It’s a history born from social fight and from people

politically aware, if we want to put it that way.

Well, the history of music in Catalunya… a musicologist, musicologists should come, because this is… I could talk about what Catalans think that is not music from here. This is one of the mistakes of political Catalanism.

This transverse (?) has been present in Catalan history. For instance, they deny Flamenco. Well, it’s not denied, it’s stated that Flamenco was an imposition of Franco’s dictatorship brought by people born in Andalusia

in the ‘40s, 60’s, and 70’s. That’s not true. Around two years ago, we did a musicological study from the Taller de Músics. We won the Puig Porret prize in Vic in the Mercat de la Música Viva.

It’s proved that families in Hostafranc, the Clota family for instance in 1880, sang Flamenco just like in Andausia, but in Catalan. Therefore, all this history,

all this imposition… Another issue that I have already mentioned, and now I will add something more, is the folkloric use made by the dictatorship of the most humane of the Andalusian culture. But the “cante jondo”, the flamenco, the flamenco dance, the flamenco guitar, this is art of great carats.

You can’t put a prize tag. The texts not of the Spanish song, which in fact was not a Spanish song, because it was Andalusian, were certainly manipulated. However, popular and traditional flamenco texts are out-and-out, they are

social texts. And the music is sufficiently elaborated not to be manipulable. I think that here in Catalunya, the great Catalan thinkers, intellectuals, politicians, they have not realized that they have mixed everything,

And they have put folk names together with authentic names, the art of dance and guitar, in the same bag. I think this has harmed Catalan culture. It has made a lot of harm, it has harmed the music. Then, there is another issue that I find particularly odd,

which is that Spanish art music composers and singers, are either Catalan or from Valencia. Here, we have Granados, Albeniz, Llobet, Tarrega, ????????, Tarragó. Tàrrega, for instance, is linked to Miquel Borrull, which is a guitar player born in Castelló who lived in Barcelona all his life.

one of the first guitarists who settles the bases of the current and modern flamenco guitar. And it’s linked with Tàrrega. Therefore, the classical guitar also connects with flamenco, there is nothing separated, everything is connected. Now much faster, but back then, too.

Therefore, why aren’t plays premiered? I do not want to say that there are not plays premiered by Granados or Albeniz. They were renowned pianists and composers, Miquel Llobet, Francisco Tarrega. All this, all this movement comes from a father that is Felip Pedrell,

teacher of Manuel de Falla.
Therefore, even if it’s by geographical reasons, how can we deny these composers in Catalunya? Why? Because the music they make is linked to Flamenco, to the Hispanic. We are denying not only the relationships that Spain and Cuba had, but the ones that Catalunya did.

Come on… Where does the Habanera come from? And the Tangos Flamencos? They are from Cuba, from the black Cubans. Everything’s mixed. The non-rhythmical Flamenco, the freer one, originates in the folklore of both Spain and Catalunya. The jota, the Romanços, de Cants de Batre, the working songs…

The Fandangos… Everything is connected, even if it’s by geographical reasons. Politics is another thing, and what I said before about the dictatorship. There’s a break during it, the outcome of the Civil War and of the Spanish Republic etc.

This is another matter. But culture is balsamic, culture can not be deciphered. You can’t define is Catalan culture in a global world, both now and then. This is what hurts me. I think we have lost here, the Catalans here have lost.

I am Catalan, I was born in Andalusia but, as I said before, as I have mentioned, for me, a Catalan in anyone registered here. I don’t overthink it, the willing to be, the willing whatever, the willing something-or-other.

The one who works and lives. And the dead is not Catalan? I do not know, I mean, the majority of people who came from the rest of Spain here to Catalunya, we have mourned our ancestors here. They are buried or incinerated here. What more roots do you want?

We are always with that of rooting, integration,
it’s so tedious. Who has to integrate who? This is the issue. Who has the right? I’m prior to you, but before me there was the homo sapiens. Copet de Neu was way more rooted to Catalunya than people with many surnames, right?

He looked at visitors who visited him like saying: what the hell are you doing here, you fool? Am I right? How much have we loved Copito de Nieve, Floquet de Neu in Catalan? He was albino, an oddity. Catalunya has a black virgin, right? If we are already diverse and plural, why are we always stuck on the same matter?
We should overcome them.

He was a composer and pianist, one of the most interesting ones in his time. Because all this list of composers, pianists, guitarists, they all lived short lives, they all died when they were around 50 or 60 years old. However, these are men that were worldwide influencial in music and culture.

But since they have this vision, right? As Felip Pedrell, right? The great Manuel de Falla was Felip Pedrell’s student. Pedrell, Granados, and Albeniz music was more recognized in the world than here.

They are not recognized here because they connect with this Hispanic vein of sounds and music that connect with the Hispanic part that Catalunya has.. Catalunya can’t deny that it is not impregnated with a Spanish part, just as Spanish culture can not deny the influence that Catalan culture has had. I mean, culture for me is balsamic, politics is another matter.

And I know how to separate it. I think I do, I don’t know. It has to be separated, we can not deny it. You can not deny Enrique Morente or Camarón, nor can Granados be denied. Nor can we deny Albeniz or Tàrrega, Sorts, Tarragó, Miquel Llobet. Why do they deny them? Where, which music halls program music with these composers?

Why the Zarzuela has disappeared from Catalunya? If the authors of the best zarzuelas are from here. Carmen Amaia was born here, I mean, she is the most global gypsy, she is the great revolutionary of flamenco and dance itself. These are doubts that I have.

I think this has been an error on the part of what is known as political Catalanism, of not realizing back in time, that all this culture, music, these composers they were not, because they are prvious, they all died

before the Civil War. What do they have to do with Franco? However, if everything that connects with the Spanish or Hispanic is a virus injected to destroy Catalan culture, well, that’s another thing. We should find some labs and the virus that the Spanish State is. I know what it is.

I perfectly know what it is. Spain has never known how to settle a State. The constitution of 1812 was the last try, La Pepa, the Cadiz Constitution. It didn’t fix it. This is the last try. France might be a centralist jacobin state, but at least it’s a sate.

Federal Germany, and so on, right? But they never knew how to here. The state obviously has this jacobin faculty and this other. I know this. But I’m talking about us. I don’t like it. I’ve never did. I’ve been trough a lot.

Them and us. Them and us, what are we? Who are “them”? Are we here now? Are you “us”, am I “them”? I say: we are different because we are the same. And we are the same because we are different.

We can now draw the conclusions they, or anyone, want to. I believe everything is way more simple.

The Catalan rumba is self-indigenous, and it also related to Cuba, of course. It’s born in Barcelona, born in Barcelona, to others. The gypsies of Girona would say that: “watch out, because here between the rotina and the rumba, we are the ones that”.

El Peret, El Pescailla, who was married to Lola Flores. The Catalan rumba is a cousin of the flamenco rumba, even if Peret denies it. Peret said that he had invented everything. Well, big myths…

Tete Montoliu as well, the only one who knew how to play jazz. Because he said he was black, since he was blind. Well, of course, he saw everything black, because of course, you do that. And it’s a rhythm that has a lot to do with everything that is the Cuban music.

It connects with flamenco through the flamenco rumba. And it has not been considered music nor dance neither on its own land. Because it’s danced. It can also be danced. There is a sector, I think there is a sector in Catalunya, I think it is an active minority.

That everything that means to disinhibit, that any passion, emotion, show you, embrace you. Of course the Catalan rumba is a party, it’s festive, you dance. Perhaps the Catalans are, I include myself, too serious.

We are sometimes lost by our aesthetic ethics. And I think it would be nice to be more natural. I said that not everyone, huh? That here it is important to decipher the things because it seems that I am doing a huge statement, and no. I think that these sectors are residual, and a minority.

Come on, Gato Perez had to come from Argentina to revive the Catalan rumba. That is also like, really. It’s a surprise, nice on the other side, right? But of course, it is a popular music. It should be the popular music of Catalunya.

And dance so that people can dance and move. Shaking your hips is good. I think, I mean. We are very strict at times. Now it seems that the Catalan rumba has revived. In Peret’s era it revived in a barbaric way. Like the Guadiana, right?

You go out, you see the water, and then you don’t. And that’s fine. It’s curious because Catalan rumba is like Guadiana, it shows up and then not. Nowadays there are a lot of people who do music between Catalan rumba and pop rock.

What do the ones so criticized do? And I criticize them too. What about Estopa? What do they do? They mix pop rock with Catalan rumba, and that’s why they are so successful. They have this flamenco-local touch. They are a bit of a swines, and their lyrics are powerful.

“La raja de tu falda” and whatever. Come on, they are already doing this. They sing in Spanish, of course. That’s their sin. It’s not a sin for me, but that’s all there is.

Estopa’s music is rooted to Catalan Rumba, which is a part of Catalan culture without a doubt. We can have doubts with other musics, but not with this one.

They and others, not just them. I name them as the maximum exponent of success. Also when I compare with success, what did Peret do? He sang Catalan rumba in Spanish and sometimes sang, he had made albums in Catalan.

But Estopa is this. It is a consequence of that. That’s why they are so successful in Latin America. Sure, people from Latin America like to dance. Thrust the waist and make love, and I know. We are supposed to like that, too, I hope and desire, otherwise we wouldn’t reproduce.

And we have to reproduce because, as you see, we will be a minority. We are already a minority in our own country. Some people already say it and complain. However, for me is a richness. It’s not an anomaly at all. Despite everything.

Very important. But we should go back to 1400. Gypsies, 600 years ago, all gypsies who entered Spain, did it through France. The first zone where they settle, is Catalunya. Then they move South, to Andalusia etc.However, the first territory in the Peninsula, is Catalunya.

So, they have influenced in all the popular songs that have been rooted here, also in flamenco, obviously, as I said before the Clota family, in this case, as traditional flamenco, they have influenced a lot all popular music, [There’s no way to understand him] here, also with flamenco obviously, as I said before the Clota family.

and in this case as a more traditional flamenco and with the Catalan rumba and also with others. Well, there are great gypsy musicians in Catalunya who play popular music. But if we go back to 1800, not long ago? Paneja,? Fernando, ?? the Catholic kings. Here comes the great splurge. They killed gypsies, Arabs, Arabs or Muslims I guess it can be said, I do not know, but well, and Jews.

Three super advanced cultures and these kings come here, and kill them all. It’s like, come on. They expel them, they kill them, there is the great slaughter. It’s either that, or becoming an apostolic Christian Catholic. The Spanish Inquisition existed, you known?

And of course. A territory that in 1400 was all made up by kingdoms. The kingdom of Castile, the kingdom of Aragon, the kingdom of, right? The kingdom of Granada, which was dominated by Muslims. I said fuck [I don’t know if you have any other terms], but how do you kill and expel the most advanced cultures that have ever existed? Sure, many fell here.

Many died. Many were expelled. And those who did not want to converted were kicked out. Of course, imagine. Now think about all of this, in history and in what is happening. Many mistakes have been made, and gypsies per se , are nomads, they are a nomadic culture.

For historical reasons, they have a good ear for music. They are self-taught, and they know, because families practice. And if the family practices, you learn. For sure. I’m sure you do. I do not say that you get to be professional, but you learn in baptisms, at weddings,

at parties, right? The gypsy families sing and dance and I do not know, then they have it very internalized, it’s like Cuba, right? Like in Mexico. Like Brasil. And we could somehow been that way, but I do not know why we have lost it. We liked more different fads that came here

from the Anglo-Saxon world. Even though rock n’ roll is Anglo-Saxon and is great. We are in the middle of a complicate and complex sea [not sure about sea, but he makes up the word]

Well, censorship over all, right?
Censorship and having to come on stage very modest and very, well, with silly lyrics. Texts, especially, and above all that culture was not, culture had to be erased.

As José Millán-Astray said: intelligence dies before than the boss of the Legion. Culture dies along with intelligence. Should books be burned? A dictatorship’s first interest is that people are uneducated.

and music as part of culture was not interesting. Then, everything that was [unfinished]. It started to revive at the beginning of 1960 when, as I said before, as you already know, from the TV on, from the consumerism, from the arrival of tourism…

People who came here to the beach, to hotels, etc, they were already more liberal. Then well, from then on, there were many people who had to go to Perpignan to buy cds. And especially if they were cd sung in Catalan. La nova cançó [the new song]. It started to open up.

Obviously there is also a repression, that is, the dictatorship also had this thing. In Catalunya, they repressed the language, the main language, the native one. Of course, this was a disaster, a mistake, for me, a big mistake on the part of the dictatorship

Cara Al Sol? Damn, I was forced to sing it. I’m 63 years old, and I was forced to sing it. I was born in 1954 and I started school at my local town, Sierra Mágina in Jaén when I was 6 in 1960.

I turned 10 there, and 14 here. Scholarly card. There, and here, teachers were Falangist. And every day we sang: “Cara al sol, con la camisa nueva…”. It was a torture. And the concept of Spanishness I mentioned before,

I prefer the word separatist, I like it very much. It has a more rapturous connotation than independence. Well, the thing is that i learned the concept of Spanishness in school with Falangist teachers.

And it was the concept of one, great and free. This concept still lasts. Let’s just say I’m not interested. It’s a closed concept, too homogeneous, it is not diverse. Therefore, it is a concept of Spanishness based on repression. And these are the memories I have.

And Cara al Sol was the greatest exponent of what boys and girls had to endure. We went to schools called “Colegios del Estado” [State’s schools]. They were the public ones.

There were private academies, of course. Private academies and private colleges, especially here Catalunya. But in my case it was impossible. Because of the neighborhood in which I lived. It was impossible for me to reach that status. I went to those neighborhood schools to fight teachers.

I didn’t sing that much, heh? Neither I raised my arm. I acted like a fool. I was a rebel. It was harmful, all those songs were, just like the “Formación del espíritu nacional” and the women that had to sew.

Boys were segregated from girls. You must find it really weird nowadays, but I lived that. I’m not that old. Well, this is how it was. However, this was kind of attractive at a sexual level, which doesn’t mean that it was good.

There are still state assisted schools with the Government that segregate boys and girls.

Well the book “Els altres andalusos” was born in 2004, and [we] lasted until 2011. We wrote three books. The first “Els altres andalusos. La qüestió nacional a Catalunya”. We were a group of people born in Andalusia that thought about the national issue in Catalunya in relationship with Spain.

Everyone told his part. We were six people at that time and everyone explained his story. Afterwards we made “Fàbrica d’immigrant”, the political manipulation by the leaders of nostalgia, and the fact of not having been born here. The period 1977-2007 is analyzed.

This was published in 2009.This is very interesting because the narrative and language of all political leaders regarding non-Catalan people is paternalistic. And that, paternalism and racism hold hands, because it is [I was not able to understand him]

There is a very serious mistake here, because these politicians, according to which neighborhoods they went to, did not speak Catalan. And I have always said that those who speak Catalan as first language, should speak it everywhere. They should do what they have to.

But change your language according to concrete neighborhoods is awful. And that happened a lot in the Carmelo when it collapsed. This was seen there. For me, it was denigrating. Very denigrating what happened.

Aside from all the collapse, and everything that meant to the neighbors. But when politicians went there, they spoke Spanish, even if they were from the Parlament. Why do we have to be like them? Them? Them and us? Can you see?

This separation of them and us, this and that, is being discussed a lot. I can’t understand this dichotomy. Well, I didn’t answer the question.

[I repeat the question]

We didn’t write the third book together. The previous ones, yes, but this one was already more of the same group our “of other Andalusians” [doesn’t make a lot of sense, neither in Catalan] already created some discord. And then I wrote it myself. And I said: “well I need to put it into words. It will be a short book, but I need to do it.”

And the name “Catalunya serà impura o no serà”, is opposing what Torres i Bages said about Catalunya, that “Serà cristiana o no serà.” This is a provocation. The experience of presenting the other two books divided us, the Andalusian group.

We visited many towns. It was the new thing, the “Els altres andalusos, altres catalans”. Francisco Paco Candel. We were asked to hold conferences in many places about previous book. I did around 60, I’ve travelled around Catalunya

introducing those two books. And then presenting “Catalunya serà impura o no serà”. My personal experience of walking on the ground and finding the reluctance of the people who attended those conferences in which I presented “Fàbrica d’immigrant” and “Els altres andalusos. La qüestió nacional a Catalunya”.

This is what it provokes. These experiences created the need in my to publish this last book. I talk about cultures among other things.

And I keep saying that culture has to be balsamic, that culture should not be an issue, such as education, such as housing, as the social part, should not be [makes up the word]. They must be structural. This is what a country does. A country is constructed this way, with mainstays.

And the future is one of the main mainstrays. Then the political use of culture, to distinguish Catalan culture, non-Catalan culture, Catalan identity, non-Catalan identity, within a global and complex world, and with so many migratory waves, causes us to talk about them and us,

them and us. And I have always condemned this. And in this book I condemn more things. And here I am proposing, and this is why there was a discordia in the group. After the book, “Catalunya serà impura o no serà”, which was edited in 2010-2011,

we took different paths. This happened because I believe that Catalan is the main language in Catalunya. It’s true, Catalan. And what’s Spanish, then? Now I’m using the main language of Catalunya.

And what if I speak Spanish? Am I not Catalan anymore? It’s an intern fuss provoked by the state. We have hatched a plot here. In the book, I propose that Spanish should adopt Catalan with good faith

as its both biological and adopted son. Isn’t a child yours if you adopt it? And you have a child made by your partner and you. But if the same couple adopts a child [unfinished].

And moreover, I propose that Catalan institutions, say, once for all, that Spanish immigration during the ‘50s, ‘60s, and ‘70s, was fundamental to build this country.

They’ve increased the number of Catalan speakers, and raised the economy. We’ve worked. That Andalusians don’t like to work? No, excuse me, if you’re not paid enough for working 12h mowing wheat or harvesting chickpeas… Come on.

You come here, and at least you are paid weekly or monthly. The Parlament de Catalunya hasn’t still recognized this. Not long ago they recognized Franco’s reprisal victims, but immigration is a taboo in Catalunya, and now more than ever.

And now all hell will break loose, because it is not solved. It has not been solved because PSC, PSOE, CIU cared more about getting the votes in order to win the power over the Generalitat, the Diputació, and the important city halls, than about it.

They favored concrete collectives. Nowadays, they are doing the same thing with non-Spanish collectives, such as Latin-American people, Pakistanis, Chinese etc. They are looking for associates, but the ones that associates because of nostalgia are a minority.

Therefore they interact with people that receive subsidies in order to have an association. They make their thoughts their own, even if the whole collective is not associated. I don’t know if you follow me.

This seems to me one of the political mistakes. And this is denounced in the three books of the Andalusians. It’s a mistake. It is normal for you to come here and associate yourself with your fellow countrymen. You have lunch together, etc. But when you institutionalize it, and since the public administrations promote it.

You create a danger You’re creating lerrouxism in your own country. You are creating sensacionalism, populism. Let people naturally settle for whatever they are, because no. I associate myself with who I want, to eat carnerete, a meal not made here.

And I meet with my countrymen of Arbuniel and eat carnelete. Now, if I set up the Andalusian house of Santa Coloma, the Arbunaliera house of Santa Coloma del Gramanet. I already have a place for free, and they give me a grant to make a procession. And processions in my town? Never ever.

And here, either, I mean. Of course, of course. And then we get muddled up. And then you have to go to the April fair to dance. As if the April Fair were [unfinished], as if all the Andalusian danced. Do all Catalans dance Sardanes? Listen, people dance if they want to. Neither everybody does castellers, which, by the way, is great, too.

[Castellers] are one of the most interesting things one see at his arrival. To see a castle, to do a castle. Maybe I can be an enxaneta [person who is at the top of the castell] at some point. We can go there, it’s great at a social level.

Sardanes are also interesting because people are in a ring cooperating. It’s great, isn’t it? But neither all Catalans do this, and neither all Andalusians dance sevillanas.

These mistakes are and will be paid. The political class are the ones to blame. Catalan politicians are afraid of people with non-Catalan surnames. “Z” makes them nervous.

That’s why we wrote some “Z” every once in a while in the book [can’t get which book]. A “z” in your candidature. Put a “z” in your candidature to make it look right. Now they can, some of them are from South America. This should be natural, otherwise it’s wrong.

Yes, the dictatorship. I don’t know why. Franco, the barbarous, savage dictator, was from Galicia. I don’t get why he didn’t make us play the gaita, he was Galician after all. He should had taught us to play the gaita, right?

No. He uses Andalusian folklore to create the Spanish culture. This, of course, clashed in Catalunya, as in the Basque Country and Galicia. Because they have, they also provide their own material to assemble cultures. Those born in Andalusia haven’t been lucky.

That the dictatorship considered that the most banal and superficial folklore could have unified all cultures of Spain, or the cultures of the state… We will be paying for this for ever. We were trashed during a lot of years.

A lot of years, a lot of years. And of course when there was only one channel , the Uno, the people that appeared were figures of this type of folklore. Like all folklore, it was amateur and had little relevance.

It’s the professional that feeds himself from this folklore in order to create art. From Andalusian folklore, from Spanish folklore, from the fandangos, from the romances, from the tonas, from the [impossible to hear him]. Part of Flamenco has its origins here.

But if you stay just with that and put aside the art, then hell breaks loose. Andalusia will pay for this all its life. Because, moreover, it has already been shown that this whole issue is associated only to Andalusia.

Like jokes.The Andalusian is funny, the Basque raises stones. This was created by the national movement. This was the national movement. Catalan, stingy. The Galician, suspicious. And the only ones who were awesome, the Castilians.

We, the Castilians, are great, right? It’s the power of Castile.

No. Communists no. The Communists have made so many barbarities as Hitler. This is proven. The Communists here in Spain were a minority when the civil war began ,and here we have the events of May 37 in Barcelona.

The union between anarchists and Marxists is broken. They start killing each other [not sure] and bumping off people from the CNT.

Anti-capitalist in the sense.
It’s very complex to consider yourself anti-capitalist in the 21st century. That is to say, capitalist in the sense of the great monopolies and oligopolies, of the powerful people, of the kind of corruption that can be done by this people.

But obviously a person who has a small business or a middle company or a store or a bar or a restaurant, cannot be considered so. Will we take that away from them? The anarchists in this sense [unfinished]. I’m closer to libertarian thought.

But here, FAI was very wrong, right? The army of what anarchism was. That is why I prefer to say that I am a libertarian, because the anarchist side is also very stigmatized.

The FAI was blamed for some killings did by the Falange. This is still taboo. We should look closer. However, there’s an odd coincidence between the anarchists and the Falange: the flags. They are almost identical.

They are black and red. I have always been worried by that. However, I’ve never been interested in flags, anthems, military, nor religion. I buck up myself if I want to talk to a superior being.

I call them from my phone, and I connect. When phones didn’t exist, I talked. I don’t need any intermediary. Because god [unfinished]. States have always needed a god to consolidate. Gods are the ones that rule the world.

Therefore, neither men and women can do anything. We can’t do anything. Everything is appointed by a being, its name doesn’t matter. So, why do we have to do something? We don’t have to. There’s no point in fighting. Everything is up to god.

I’ll die when God wants me to. Why do I go to the doctor when I’m sick? This is the issue. Anti-capitalist in the sense that I don’t want duties. People can’t travel freely whereas money can.

Now, we are here doing this interview and maybe, in any part of the world, they are investing in this building. Maybe this building has a new owner, right? For example, these kind of things.

That’s hard for me to understand. That there are no regulations, that there are no ways to control capital. Speculative capital, unproductive. What a deal, right? And above all, corruption. These people that you look and thing: the hell?

It’s crazy. So, we have to be anti-capitalist in this sense.

Question.

The first law that regulated abortion was made by a CNT leader called Federica Montseny. She was also the Ministry of Health for a while. If we consider that naturism, nudism, vegetarianism, environmentalism etc

come from the anarchist ideology, is like [unfinished]. It’s very alive nowadays. However, as a social organized movement… In 1978, there was a case called Cas Scala that ended the possibility to have an adapted CNT at the end of the 20th century, and the beginning of the 21st.

The Cas Scala was set up with the police, and it was proven in the trial. It was an infiltration by ?? Joaquín Gambín, the Grillo. He brainwashed some kids, who were my friends. I was just a bit older.

I knew them all because they all went to the Penya Flamenca Enrique Morente in Nou Barris. They were brainwashed. They were radicalized and did something atrocious.

But in the trial, it was shown that napalm was thrown, not just cocktails. Napalm is a chemical liquid that only the military have. And back then, I don’t know if it was in 1978, that the Home Secretary was Rodolfo Martín Villa.

He’s still alive. He hold a good position in Repsol, or in other company. This is a taboo, just like Puig Antich execution in 1974. Puig Antich, “El Salvador”. Everything related to the libertarian movement has been left behind.

Federica Montseny arrives during the Transition and Maria Cristina is full. There’re libertarian waves in Park Güell. And in all contra-culture. And the hippie movement appears. All of these has its origin in anarchism,

not communism. Communism is a very closed ideology run by hierarchy. They don’t have anything, it’s the opposite. Of course.

On one hand, there was Joseph Stalin and 1817 revolution. He took the power when Lenin died, and he was a supporter of Socialism in One Country. In order to make it [Socialism in One Country] work, that being, invade countries and create the Soviet Bloc,

he needed the disappearing of revolutions in the world. From then on, there’s a split and the Communist International begins. The second one was the socialist. There’s a split and the third one, the Communist International, is created, and ruled by Stalin.

It had satellites all over the world. The Communist Party, which was minority, grew bigger in a short period of time. Why? Because they defended the Republic without wanting a revolution.

The anarchists, besides fighting against the coup, against the Francoist or fascist barbarism, wanted to make the revolution. And here comes a time in which there is a confrontation between them. It was no longer just to confront the oppressive forces that united all the left,

both anarchist and communist marxist. There was a division within the left wing. This was awful because it weakened the confrontation with people who supported the coup, and the military.

And this, here in Barcelona had a palpable demonstration. On the other hand, the POUM has to do with the fact that it was Trotskyist. Trotsky faced Stalin because he also wanted to be the General Secretary of PECUS in the USSR or Russia. However, the battle was won by Stalin.

Trotsky was a supporter of the revolution everywhere. Well, he called it, a permanent revolution. Then he was closer, even though he was a communist, but he was closer to the libertarians than to Stalin. That is why the PSUC is directly kills the libertarians and Andreu Nin.

And internationally, Ramon Mercader is sent to Mexico to kill Trotsky. This is the story of the left, it is very black and dark. And it is not gold everything that glitters. However, people think left-wing is a synonym of angel. Hell no.

No man, no. There have been many barbarities here on behalf of the left. But many. And that has remained like [unfinished]. I don’t get how people that nowadays call themselves left-wing, support Maduro from Venezuela.

Come on. Who? Who? But this [unfinished]. What the hell is going on? And they say: “oh the liberty”. There’s no liberty. To be left-wing, you need to admire and love freedom. And the rest will come. But the Venezuela thing? There’s no name for it.

There’s no name for it. That is a huge dictatorship. Now, are there people in the opposition who are right-wing? Of course. So what? But at this time, they are in favor of freedom. Then we’ll see what happens, right?

There’re people in the Parliament of Catalunya that I know that, when we talk about this, is like talking of Cuba. Until recently, they jailed homosexuals. But how can you support this?

Oh yankees. No, no yankees are not yankees. Because they do not have the chance to buy and access the food? Okay. The blockade, yes. But why should homosexuals be in jail? Explain it to me. Why? What’s the reason? Like Franco did.

In 1972, I served some time in the 6th gallery. We were on the ground floor, and the second one, was the one for homosexuals, transexuals and transvestites. It was crazy.

And I was like: what did they do? Well, maybe two of them were kissing in the cinema. This happened in 1970. How is this justified? What’s this? This is justified in Cuba, and not here? No. We can’t meassure it like that.

First, we have to be Democrats and love freedom. And from there on, we can discuss whatever you want. If not, we can do like most people, who couldn’t care less. Barça and Espanyol. Periquitos and Culers, amazing.

Franco hunted the anti-Franco but not the anti-Francoists who did nothing, no. He hunted down the people who were fighting organized underground. But the dictatorship gave security and work to those who stayed out of politics.

People who had no contacts with the clandestine movement, said: “there is work, my children go to school, I bought a car, I bought a TV.” That’s great. Why? Because there’s another mistake of marxism: being the children of the working class,

doesn’t make you revolutionary. This is a lie. Who made this up? Who made this up? How have people fallen for this? No, no. Workers are not revolutionary per se. You need to have or acquire a consciousness.

It can come from the family, from reading, from the surroundings, the neighborhood, the workplace, the I don’t know, from different places. And this awareness is what makes you to rebel against injustices or against inequalities or against power, etc. etc.

But it is not written anywhere that country-people, the weaker individuals of the group were not revolutionary, but Democrat. No. There were many people who were neutral, not Francoist, but neutral.

It’s not the same being neutral than anti-Franco. Some people were sad when he died. Why? Because they were scared that a Second Civil War started. It was an awful memory for all of us. One thing is a coup, that lasts a week.

Which isn’t justifiable, by the way. But another thing is the rancor of the social classes, which were armed by then. Each one on one side. Three years spent like this. It was awful.

Of course, they did a lot of barbarities in the rearguard. Both sides. Another thing is the war front, where either you kill or get killed. But in the rearguard, there were a lot of revenges in towns.

Both sides. Revenge, hate. It was a huge division that lasted three years, almost three years. It was a chaos. And the division was ideological.

As always, the story and its construction, are the things that determine the social movement. I mean, it’s the story. We need to be careful with the words and the story.

What do we say? What do we not say? What is it that we do not say? The silences. Does silent implies consent? Or is it better to be silent and not put one’s foot in it?

Well, CEDA, in 1931, not in 1933 or 1934, won the elections. The Spanish Confederation of Autonomous Right-wing Group. José María Gil-Robles y Quiñones unified these sectors.

All right-wing parties made their candidacy together, and so the CEDA won the elections. I don’t know which ones. They called it “Bienio negro”, from 1934 to 1936. In February 1936, the Front Popular won. It lasts from February until the coup in July.

After the civil war, the carlists divide themselves. Some of them are not pro-Franco, even if they, along with the requeté and the Falange, supported the coup. Some of them backed out when they saw it was too…

They thought that Franco would only put things in order, but later on [they] saw that it was a fuss. And during the two-years period in which the CEDA was in power, it was awful in Spain. There was a lot of tension.

They called it the “Black bienio” because there were a lot of deaths. A lot of killings. It was a fuss, right? The monarchs, who were in favor of Juan de Borbón, were against Franco but weren’t able to get an alternative off the ground.

And alternative to make Juan de Borbón the king. Franco was like the Guadiana river, and in 1950 something, he appoints Juan Carlos through the Francoist Courts.

Of course, people don’t get how the regime has continued. There’s not a break like in Portugal or Greece. The same policemen that tortured you yesterday, were democrats tomorrow.

This hadn’t been seen elsewhere. We are still discovering dead people in the ditches. There hasn’t been a real reconciliation, but consumerism. Being consumers have made us a bit of [unfinished].

We should leave it aside so we don’t get mad. This Francoist movement unified by the CEDA, is divided because power is finally hold by the military, and these people were civilians.

Well, some carlists and the requeté were armed, too. They played a key role in the Basque Country. What happened in the Basque Country and Navarra is awesome. The Communities of chartered regime already had the economical agreement. It’s not a novelty. Álava and Navarra had it.

And during the Transition, Vizcaya and Guipuzcoa, adhere to it. The “Diputaciones florales” [it’s not translated] receive the taxes there and don’t give anything to the Interterritorial solidarity. It’s curious because Franco keeps it.

Franco keeps the Fueros in Álava and Navarra. There should had been some kind of agreement with carlists and requetés to support the coup. Maybe carlists here in Catalunya could have done the same.

But yes, you support a coup in exchange of what? Names? Blood? What a fuss. Our history is a huge mess.

Yes, there was something. The Falange was obviously a violent movement, like the FAI, which was anarcho-syndicalist.

There was an odd thing: once the civil war was over, both people from the CNT and from the Falange, built the Spanish Trade Union Organization.

They are the bigwigs of the Trade Union Organization in which workers and employers were together. It was curiously made this way. Since the CNT already had experience in having trade unions, and they knew how they worked,

they enter and rebuild the Spanish Trade Union Organization along with Falangists. I met some of them in Nou Barris: one was a Falangist and the other anarchist or at least from the CNT. At the end, I saw them talking and I was like: hell, they agree.

Both the CNT and the Falange called themselves an anti-political movement with social character. This frightens me somehow. You know? Anti-political in which sense?

You need to qualify what you say, because otherwise… The difference is very small between both of them. All the mystery of everything that happened in the 20th century in Spain… Maybe experts and historians, should, well, maybe they are doing it now,

I’m a brainless, and sometimes I talk for the sake of talking, but there are weird things here, very weird. I think many people changed sides once the war was over, many people. They reconciled very easily.

And I believe their forgot their past. People who were from the CNT ended up being city police. It’s true, also Falangists. This happened a lot in small towns, it was better to be a local policemen that to pick chickpeas under the sun, right?

What a human being wants at the end is to live, to be in peace, to see his/her children grow up, have a career, even if it’s short. Don’t make it too hard. To think is complex. If you think, you rebel.

You rebel, with a b, right? Revolution, with v. You can make great puns with the b and the v. Revolutionary, with v. But the ones that rebels, with b. The one that confronts, right? Imagine.

Just with two letters that are pronounced almost the same you can make a lot of things. Language is amazing, it’s very important, more than what we believe. Because of this, when you hear some people talk… Some people are inflammatory when they talk, right?

They don’t realize the harm they can do. For instance, the brutality of television language in football matches. It’s brutal. It wasn’t the same even when Nerón reigned in Rome. When Christians were thrown into the lions, right?

It’s a war-like language. My god, if god existed.

This is outrageous. It’s outrageous. Trying to make a profit of a situation like that one… There’s no name for it. Wanting to cash in on people dying… A lot of people died, at least for me.

Screams, chaos. That day I was with my family and some friends at Cala Honda, a beach in Granada. I was in [couldn’t understand him], in Jaén. That day we went to the beach.

Behind us there was a family talking in Catalan and they were the first ones that realized that something happened. We approached them and asked what had happened, because we were receiving news on our phones. They had been talking about it for a while, and we got together.

But everything that happened afterwards… What’s going on here? What’s El Periódico saying? What is Puigdemont saying? What is Joaquim Forn saying? What is Trapero saying? What is Ada Colau saying? There’s a web of lies here, a web of interests.

And you really don’t know anything. Do we have enough criteria to know who’s saying the truth? Intelligence agencies, espionage, counter-espionage… This is a dark world full of sewers.

The state… There was a tweet from Garcia Maragall, the former Secretary of State. I saw it and found it weird. It said: “From mid August on, or in August, things will happen in Barcelona.” Hell, and being the Secretary of State.

He’s an educated and intelligent person, even if I don’t believe in his ideals. However, you need to recognize his intelligence. I thought: “Well, that’s odd.”

That man, in that tweet. Of course, tweets are very short, and he’s saying that things will happen in Barcelona o in Catalunya in August, right?

What is supposed to happen, right? It’s brutal. And this controversy is linked to La Vanguardia, which has just fired Gregorio Morán because he was against the Catalan referendum.

Do you know what I’m saying?He was in a non-pro Catalan referendum newspaper. Or is it? I don’t know. El Periódico has published articles against Hernández, the director, because they say he was the confident of Rubalcaba

when he was the Minister of Interior, back when PSOE was in power. Is journalism so rotten? Are there so many interests? At the end, both newspapers live out of subventions.

Who buys that? I don’t know. Social media is full of hoax. Everyday, I receive unfocused information on my phone.

I don’t know, I was very surprised by this, and I’m in shock because I didn’t expect that so many people went to the demonstration. However, I didn’t know that the marshals service was the NC one.

I don’t know why. It’s not [unfinished] I’ve collaborated with the CN in meetings, conferences. I’ve also collaborated with Òmnium. But, marshals service? If this is true, which I don’t know.

I will call Jordi Sánchez. We’ve known each other for years, and he will tell me. It just doesn’t get into my head that the marshals service of a demonstration is organized by a concrete unity, whatever that is.

I don’t care. It would have been more Constitutional I guess. I just don’t know, it’s very weird. The polemic is very weird. It creates a lot of confusion. I just don’t know.I’m not sure what to answer. It’s something that has left me in shock.

I haven’t been able to have my own criteria. It’s like a storm that fills 40 m2 in 5 minutes. You get information all the time and you can’t assimilate it.

And this happened just when we have the 1st of October in the next corner. What a coincidence that imams had no control. All states need a god to influence young people so they commit atrocities.

In the name of the divinity. Since I came to Barcelona at the end of the mort, I walk through Les Rambles everyday. Trough Plaça Catalunya, Portal de l’Àngel, Escudellers etc. Everyday.

Everyday. I have the need. Otherwise I would be scared. I mean “I’m not afraid”, but have you been to Les Rambles a month after the massacre that these crazy kids did? They were brainwashed by the Ripoll’s imam.

Some people hadn’t been there. Les Rambles are full. If we are not afraid, let’s occupy them. This terrorism is uncontrollable. See what just 4 persons can do.

This is a huge mess. And then you have all the pictures of the king with Arabia’s sheik, or whoever is in charge there. And he sells weapons. Real weapons? Yes. Spain sells weapons to Arabia Saudita.

This can’t go on. Which companies are those? Were are its headquarters? Do they pay taxes? Who says it clearly? This is important, to know whether Spanish companies build weapons to export it to Arabia Saudita.

Yes, or no? Let’s find out. Who? No idea. They talk about the Mossos, about whether they have received a letter from the CIA that was put aside by the Policia Nacional and the Guardia Civil.

Do the Mossos have enough workers and infrastructures to face this kind of problem? After the terrorist attack, the victims… It’s hard to put this things on the table, it still hurts.